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	<title>Comments on: IT Firm Loses $100,000 to Online Bank Fraud</title>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-9959</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-9959</guid>
		<description>Ultimately, this would not protect you from Zeus.  The fraudsters would just wait for you to enter your credentials, and then hijack your session in real time using a man-in-the-browser attack.  They then return a fake error message to you asking you to try again.  By that time, the fraudster is in your account.  

If he keeps the browser from timing out, he could even lurk in your online banking to allow you time to log out, and then he could send his nefarious transactions.

There is absolutely no substitute for properly protecting the end user.  

Unfortunately, most banks do not do enough to help the end users protect themselves.  Educate, educate, educate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ultimately, this would not protect you from Zeus.  The fraudsters would just wait for you to enter your credentials, and then hijack your session in real time using a man-in-the-browser attack.  They then return a fake error message to you asking you to try again.  By that time, the fraudster is in your account.  </p>
<p>If he keeps the browser from timing out, he could even lurk in your online banking to allow you time to log out, and then he could send his nefarious transactions.</p>
<p>There is absolutely no substitute for properly protecting the end user.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, most banks do not do enough to help the end users protect themselves.  Educate, educate, educate.</p>
<div class="CommentRating">Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-9959" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('9959', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-9959-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-9959" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('9959', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-9959-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-9958</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-9958</guid>
		<description>Rick&#039;s absolutely right.  There is NO 100% solution to this problem which will be both convenient and safe, but you can almost reach this by booting to a liveCD.  Ubuntu&#039;s is very easy to use, and includes a browser which is very good (Firefox).  

I do not recommend booting from a USB or other writeable media, even if not doing so requires answering your security questions every time.  If you can write to it, so can fraudsters.

If you are a small business owner, do not mess around with this simply because you don&#039;t want to spend an extra 5 minutes to do this business.  That 5 minutes can save you your business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick&#8217;s absolutely right.  There is NO 100% solution to this problem which will be both convenient and safe, but you can almost reach this by booting to a liveCD.  Ubuntu&#8217;s is very easy to use, and includes a browser which is very good (Firefox).  </p>
<p>I do not recommend booting from a USB or other writeable media, even if not doing so requires answering your security questions every time.  If you can write to it, so can fraudsters.</p>
<p>If you are a small business owner, do not mess around with this simply because you don&#8217;t want to spend an extra 5 minutes to do this business.  That 5 minutes can save you your business.</p>
<div class="CommentRating">Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-9958" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('9958', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-9958-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-9958" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('9958', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-9958-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Haja Peer Mohamed H</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-3907</link>
		<dc:creator>Haja Peer Mohamed H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-3907</guid>
		<description>what a nightmare! So sad.. something still left to learn! ha...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what a nightmare! So sad.. something still left to learn! ha&#8230;</p>
<div class="CommentRating">Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-3907" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('3907', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-3907-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-3907" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('3907', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-3907-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: TheGeezer</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-2771</link>
		<dc:creator>TheGeezer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-2771</guid>
		<description>It is a mystery. Let us know when you find out the answer to that one Charlie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a mystery. Let us know when you find out the answer to that one Charlie.</p>
<div class="CommentRating">Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-2771" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2771', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-2771-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-2771" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2771', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-2771-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: AlphaCentauri</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-2761</link>
		<dc:creator>AlphaCentauri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-2761</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re all expecting this to be Zeus and to behave like the Zeus infections we&#039;ve seen stealing information from noncommercial users. But for a target potentially yielding as much money as this, it&#039;s entirely possible they&#039;ve crafted a trojan that uninstalls itself after the deed is done. They don&#039;t anticipate there being any chance they can continue to collect data from that computer once there&#039;s been such a high-profile theft, so why make it easy for law enforcement and the AV software companies to find and analyze their malware?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color:#FFFFCC !important"><p>We&#8217;re all expecting this to be Zeus and to behave like the Zeus infections we&#8217;ve seen stealing information from noncommercial users. But for a target potentially yielding as much money as this, it&#8217;s entirely possible they&#8217;ve crafted a trojan that uninstalls itself after the deed is done. They don&#8217;t anticipate there being any chance they can continue to collect data from that computer once there&#8217;s been such a high-profile theft, so why make it easy for law enforcement and the AV software companies to find and analyze their malware?</p>
</div><div class="CommentRating">Well-loved. Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-2761" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2761', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-2761-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">9</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-2761" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2761', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-2761-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: AlphaCentauri</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-2760</link>
		<dc:creator>AlphaCentauri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-2760</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, the live CD&#039;s are only really helpful when the only people using them are ones who already are pretty good at protecting themselves. Once naive users start looking for sites to get a download to create a boot disc, they&#039;ll be getting duped by the same kind of people distributing rogue AV programs. And if they start popping any CD that shows up in the mail into their computers as if they were AOL installs, I&#039;m sure we&#039;ll see them being used as vectors for malware, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color:#FFFFCC !important"><p>Unfortunately, the live CD&#8217;s are only really helpful when the only people using them are ones who already are pretty good at protecting themselves. Once naive users start looking for sites to get a download to create a boot disc, they&#8217;ll be getting duped by the same kind of people distributing rogue AV programs. And if they start popping any CD that shows up in the mail into their computers as if they were AOL installs, I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;ll see them being used as vectors for malware, too.</p>
</div><div class="CommentRating">Well-loved. Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-2760" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2760', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-2760-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">5</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-2760" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2760', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-2760-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: IT Firm Loses $100,000 to Online Bank Fraud — Krebs on Security &#171; Ye Olde Soapbox</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-2748</link>
		<dc:creator>IT Firm Loses $100,000 to Online Bank Fraud — Krebs on Security &#171; Ye Olde Soapbox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-2748</guid>
		<description>[...] Read more&#8230;  IT Firm Loses $100,000 to Online Bank Fraud — Krebs on Security. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read more&#8230;  IT Firm Loses $100,000 to Online Bank Fraud — Krebs on Security. [...]</p>
<div class="CommentRating">Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-2748" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2748', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-2748-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-2748" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2748', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-2748-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-2685</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-2685</guid>
		<description>I have to agree that I really only hear about smaller banks being the victim of these types of losses. I think you are right it would be extremely interesting to see who is really the victim of these types of fraud, large vs small banks. However I don&#039;t know that simply because we only hear about the small banks that means that the big banks have this all under control. We usually hear about these incidents regarding lawsuits or upset customers, big banks have a lot more resources to keep people quiet and even just compensate customer losses to maintain PR and face. I&#039;m not saying that is the case, but on the other hand without hard research I&#039;m not drawing any conclusions.

If there are major/minor banks using transaction monitoring, I would love to hear about it and even discuss to learn lessons from them. I think there is huge value to all banks in having a successful model to follow to help prevent this fraud. Right now I think risk based transaction monitoring is still a developing technology, when a mature solution is needed right this instant.

PS - If your using transaction monitoring as a financial institution, I would love to have someone change my mind about the state of things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color:#FFFFCC !important"><p>I have to agree that I really only hear about smaller banks being the victim of these types of losses. I think you are right it would be extremely interesting to see who is really the victim of these types of fraud, large vs small banks. However I don&#8217;t know that simply because we only hear about the small banks that means that the big banks have this all under control. We usually hear about these incidents regarding lawsuits or upset customers, big banks have a lot more resources to keep people quiet and even just compensate customer losses to maintain PR and face. I&#8217;m not saying that is the case, but on the other hand without hard research I&#8217;m not drawing any conclusions.</p>
<p>If there are major/minor banks using transaction monitoring, I would love to hear about it and even discuss to learn lessons from them. I think there is huge value to all banks in having a successful model to follow to help prevent this fraud. Right now I think risk based transaction monitoring is still a developing technology, when a mature solution is needed right this instant.</p>
<p>PS &#8211; If your using transaction monitoring as a financial institution, I would love to have someone change my mind about the state of things.</p>
</div><div class="CommentRating">Well-loved. Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-2685" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2685', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-2685-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">4</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-2685" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2685', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-2685-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">0</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-2673</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-2673</guid>
		<description>Who says that banks aren&#039;t monitoring transactions already?  Larger banks have transaction risk monitoring going on in the background.  I would note that almost all of these fraud examples you find are with firms banking with smaller banks that cannot invest in that level of secuirty like larger banks can.  I think you should start tracking stats of the size of the bank (assessts for simplicity) who&#039;s client you&#039;ve heard of being defrauded.  I think you&#039;ll find incidents skewed towards smaller banks because they don&#039;t have transaction monitoring in place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color:#FFFFCC !important"><p>Who says that banks aren&#8217;t monitoring transactions already?  Larger banks have transaction risk monitoring going on in the background.  I would note that almost all of these fraud examples you find are with firms banking with smaller banks that cannot invest in that level of secuirty like larger banks can.  I think you should start tracking stats of the size of the bank (assessts for simplicity) who&#8217;s client you&#8217;ve heard of being defrauded.  I think you&#8217;ll find incidents skewed towards smaller banks because they don&#8217;t have transaction monitoring in place.</p>
</div><div class="CommentRating">Well-loved. Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-2673" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2673', 'add', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-2673-up" style="font-size:14px; color:#009933;">7</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-2673" src="http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/images/1_16_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('2673', 'subtract', 'krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating-pro/', '1_16_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-2673-down" style="font-size:14px; color:#990033;">2</span></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dipayan</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/02/it-firm-loses-100000-to-online-bank-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-2660</link>
		<dc:creator>Dipayan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/?p=1275#comment-2660</guid>
		<description>Really sad one....But true. We have to keep a very significant lesson from this. We should be well prepared to prevent any type Technological fraud at this era, we cant afford to take any risk of security whether it is related to any sensitive issue. So I do believe the Accounting-Transaction system of every bank should be integrated to the latest biometrics technology , from there every user can be identified very easily. Not only that but also no body can have any transaction of the system before the enrollment to the system database. I really find no other alternatives of preventing these.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really sad one&#8230;.But true. We have to keep a very significant lesson from this. We should be well prepared to prevent any type Technological fraud at this era, we cant afford to take any risk of security whether it is related to any sensitive issue. So I do believe the Accounting-Transaction system of every bank should be integrated to the latest biometrics technology , from there every user can be identified very easily. Not only that but also no body can have any transaction of the system before the enrollment to the system database. I really find no other alternatives of preventing these.</p>
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