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	<title>Comments on: Turning Hot Credit Cards into Hot Stuff</title>
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	<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/</link>
	<description>In-depth security news and investigation</description>
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		<title>By: Julia</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-39045</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-39045</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m writing from Spain. I&#039;ve ben sent one of those this mails from transitaircargo  As it seemed  a bit suspicious i&#039;ve been looking for  information and found your web. Thank you very much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m writing from Spain. I&#8217;ve ben sent one of those this mails from transitaircargo  As it seemed  a bit suspicious i&#8217;ve been looking for  information and found your web. Thank you very much.</p>
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		<title>By: J.T. Wenting</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-36781</link>
		<dc:creator>J.T. Wenting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-36781</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Banks go a long way to detect and prevent fraud, and will file charges and prosecute when it is detected. That&#039;s one reason for their fees on your account, not to relay losses from fraud you report to them, but to help fund efforts to prevent such fraud from harming you in the first place.

I&#039;ve personally been involved in software development for banks, and the processes and people there are (overall, there&#039;s lemons everywhere of course) high quality.
But you have to draw a line somewhere between being 100% secure and being still usable.
A 100% secure system could be created but it would be a system where it&#039;s impossible to access the content of your bank account in any way (after all, a thief could have a fake account book, fake ID in your name, etc. and plunder it if we went back to those days, where the only way to access your account was by physically going to the bank and asking for money after being positively identified by several employees as the account holder).

Efforts are underway to replace the current ATM cards with more secure versions, and implementations are being fielded in several countries already.
But when the hardware to read the devices has been compromised, it&#039;s still possible to skim them and it won&#039;t be long before the new cards can be created by criminals (though at least initially the cost to them will be higher than it is now).
Ditto with credit cards, the vast majority of fraud is because people aren&#039;t mindful of who they give their card to, buying from shady websites or handing cards to restaurant waiters who skim them behind a counter while the card owner isn&#039;t watching.
No amount of IT can change such things...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Banks go a long way to detect and prevent fraud, and will file charges and prosecute when it is detected. That&#8217;s one reason for their fees on your account, not to relay losses from fraud you report to them, but to help fund efforts to prevent such fraud from harming you in the first place.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve personally been involved in software development for banks, and the processes and people there are (overall, there&#8217;s lemons everywhere of course) high quality.<br />
But you have to draw a line somewhere between being 100% secure and being still usable.<br />
A 100% secure system could be created but it would be a system where it&#8217;s impossible to access the content of your bank account in any way (after all, a thief could have a fake account book, fake ID in your name, etc. and plunder it if we went back to those days, where the only way to access your account was by physically going to the bank and asking for money after being positively identified by several employees as the account holder).</p>
<p>Efforts are underway to replace the current ATM cards with more secure versions, and implementations are being fielded in several countries already.<br />
But when the hardware to read the devices has been compromised, it&#8217;s still possible to skim them and it won&#8217;t be long before the new cards can be created by criminals (though at least initially the cost to them will be higher than it is now).<br />
Ditto with credit cards, the vast majority of fraud is because people aren&#8217;t mindful of who they give their card to, buying from shady websites or handing cards to restaurant waiters who skim them behind a counter while the card owner isn&#8217;t watching.<br />
No amount of IT can change such things&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: BrianKrebs</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-35086</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianKrebs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-35086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Patrik. Maybe next time send me a private note, or just paste a part of the information? I redacted part of the credit card number.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Patrik. Maybe next time send me a private note, or just paste a part of the information? I redacted part of the credit card number.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrik Jagge</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-35050</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrik Jagge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2011 07:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-35050</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[excellent post Brian someone was planning on sending you money through a stolen credit card and pasting the credit card information he was going to use could you report it to the owner so he may cancel it thanks I would but I wouldn&#039;t know how I live in Singapore.

Ryan Kolinberd [] 4744XXXXXXXXXX 0615 746 [11206 ] United States [] New York [] BROOKLYN [] 889 BROADWAY APT 3D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent post Brian someone was planning on sending you money through a stolen credit card and pasting the credit card information he was going to use could you report it to the owner so he may cancel it thanks I would but I wouldn&#8217;t know how I live in Singapore.</p>
<p>Ryan Kolinberd [] 4744XXXXXXXXXX 0615 746 [11206 ] United States [] New York [] BROOKLYN [] 889 BROADWAY APT 3D</p>
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		<title>By: grumpy</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-34898</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2011 11:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-34898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True, banks are in business to make profits. But losses can be covered in two different ways:

1) Prevent, detect and prosecute
2) Transfer to customers (fees, interest rates etc.)

They *will* choose the cheapest option. If that is to let the customers carry the cost, they will. It&#039;s our job to make option 2 the most expensive by forcing our political servants to enact laws or possibly even just enforce those already in place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, banks are in business to make profits. But losses can be covered in two different ways:</p>
<p>1) Prevent, detect and prosecute<br />
2) Transfer to customers (fees, interest rates etc.)</p>
<p>They *will* choose the cheapest option. If that is to let the customers carry the cost, they will. It&#8217;s our job to make option 2 the most expensive by forcing our political servants to enact laws or possibly even just enforce those already in place.</p>
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		<title>By: bt</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-34885</link>
		<dc:creator>bt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2011 10:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-34885</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &#039;feds&#039; have a side?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8216;feds&#8217; have a side?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Neej</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-34798</link>
		<dc:creator>Neej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-34798</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With respect and to be sure I&#039;m no expert in the area I take issue with some of the points you raise in this post:

To start with the vast majority of banks are entities that exist to make a profit.  I have trouble believing that if current levels of criminal activity were to be reduced or disappear then fees and charges would be lowered - these levels are determined by what the market will bear IMO.  Also it is incorrect that banks are not hiring examiners, investigators and supporting law enforcement agencies.

There have been industry efforts to reduce fraud through better technology through investment in IT employees.

Bank cards and ATMs are old (although they&#039;ve changed significantly since their introduction) - however what would you have them replaced with?  Criminals have and still do target other forms of monetary transactions such as cheques but the levels of loss due to criminal activity do not make these other forms of transaction not worth using still for some people.

Comparing financial crime to the Cold War is a bit rich: your basically comparing two former super powers with opposing ideologies and the capacity to wipe out mankind with the world&#039;s financial system and thieves.  The thieves aren&#039;t at the level of bringing down the system let alone destroying the earth ...

And (and I&#039;ll cop to feeling a little petty here with this last point) purloined money is not lost to the world economy: whomever makes these ill gotten gains is still going to use their money, indeed many criminals enjoy looking rich etc. and so spend a great deal of money rather than saving or investing in assets (like people who actually understand money and retire rich).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect and to be sure I&#8217;m no expert in the area I take issue with some of the points you raise in this post:</p>
<p>To start with the vast majority of banks are entities that exist to make a profit.  I have trouble believing that if current levels of criminal activity were to be reduced or disappear then fees and charges would be lowered &#8211; these levels are determined by what the market will bear IMO.  Also it is incorrect that banks are not hiring examiners, investigators and supporting law enforcement agencies.</p>
<p>There have been industry efforts to reduce fraud through better technology through investment in IT employees.</p>
<p>Bank cards and ATMs are old (although they&#8217;ve changed significantly since their introduction) &#8211; however what would you have them replaced with?  Criminals have and still do target other forms of monetary transactions such as cheques but the levels of loss due to criminal activity do not make these other forms of transaction not worth using still for some people.</p>
<p>Comparing financial crime to the Cold War is a bit rich: your basically comparing two former super powers with opposing ideologies and the capacity to wipe out mankind with the world&#8217;s financial system and thieves.  The thieves aren&#8217;t at the level of bringing down the system let alone destroying the earth &#8230;</p>
<p>And (and I&#8217;ll cop to feeling a little petty here with this last point) purloined money is not lost to the world economy: whomever makes these ill gotten gains is still going to use their money, indeed many criminals enjoy looking rich etc. and so spend a great deal of money rather than saving or investing in assets (like people who actually understand money and retire rich).</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-34746</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-34746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Money in Minutes was shut down via Western Union about 2 years ago. I personally upgraded over 35 locations in Virginia to new hardware and new software. 

ALL transfers now require a min of 3 days to process.

As to the other comment about monitoring via UPS/USPS/Fed Ex. If you are getting more than 2 packages a day (on a regular basis) addressed to a different name than the one living at the address (which is on file at most shipping offices), the account and address is flagged for fraud. The local tax office, and police WILL be notified and you will be put under investigation.

The investigation may take up to 2 years to complete, at which time you will be arrested. Normally for credit card fraud. As drop shipping is NOT illegal, package forwarding is NOT illegal either. 

What tends to happen is that the crooks will likely change the billing address on the Credit card to your address,  and then start making fradulent purchases, many banks have fraud departments that monitor this change of address activity.

Once you are charged, the investigation continues. Experience is the best teacher. I have been involved in many related and unrelated cases gives me significantly more exp than the average person.

Trust me, no matter how bad it gets, it is better to be on the side of the Feds, than the side of the criminals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Money in Minutes was shut down via Western Union about 2 years ago. I personally upgraded over 35 locations in Virginia to new hardware and new software. </p>
<p>ALL transfers now require a min of 3 days to process.</p>
<p>As to the other comment about monitoring via UPS/USPS/Fed Ex. If you are getting more than 2 packages a day (on a regular basis) addressed to a different name than the one living at the address (which is on file at most shipping offices), the account and address is flagged for fraud. The local tax office, and police WILL be notified and you will be put under investigation.</p>
<p>The investigation may take up to 2 years to complete, at which time you will be arrested. Normally for credit card fraud. As drop shipping is NOT illegal, package forwarding is NOT illegal either. </p>
<p>What tends to happen is that the crooks will likely change the billing address on the Credit card to your address,  and then start making fradulent purchases, many banks have fraud departments that monitor this change of address activity.</p>
<p>Once you are charged, the investigation continues. Experience is the best teacher. I have been involved in many related and unrelated cases gives me significantly more exp than the average person.</p>
<p>Trust me, no matter how bad it gets, it is better to be on the side of the Feds, than the side of the criminals.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: EJ</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-34745</link>
		<dc:creator>EJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-34745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Asking a shipper to hassle their customers on the off chance that they could be a mule? Asking a shipper to spend their own funds to fight something that isn&#039;t costing them money directly? Asking a shipper to red flag activity that the police aren&#039;t going to be able to act upon because there isn&#039;t sufficient cause to investigate?

Yes, it is unreasonable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asking a shipper to hassle their customers on the off chance that they could be a mule? Asking a shipper to spend their own funds to fight something that isn&#8217;t costing them money directly? Asking a shipper to red flag activity that the police aren&#8217;t going to be able to act upon because there isn&#8217;t sufficient cause to investigate?</p>
<p>Yes, it is unreasonable.</p>
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		<title>By: doug burkhart</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/10/turning-hot-credit-cards-into-hot-stuff/comment-page-1/#comment-34741</link>
		<dc:creator>doug burkhart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=11949#comment-34741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[50 packages per week? Items that must be signed for?? Wouldn&#039;t that raise suspicion with UPS, USPS, or FedEx? Is it unreasonable to ask these shipping companies for help in fighting this stuff? Plus they have records of delivery, signatures, etc. Seems like they could be raising a red flag or two in this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>50 packages per week? Items that must be signed for?? Wouldn&#8217;t that raise suspicion with UPS, USPS, or FedEx? Is it unreasonable to ask these shipping companies for help in fighting this stuff? Plus they have records of delivery, signatures, etc. Seems like they could be raising a red flag or two in this.</p>
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