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	<title>Comments on: Rogue Pharma, Fake AV Vendors Feel Credit Card Crunch</title>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-122525</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-122525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a retired American living in the Philippines.  Drugs from big pharma are expensive here.  Name brand generics such as Teva and Apotex are unavailable.  Locally manufactured generics are available, but not cheap and anyway the raw ingredients are imported.  From where -- who knows.

Buying from mail order pharmacies is an economic necessity.  I think you may be a bit to0 blanket in your condemnation of these pharmacies.  I am getting drugs from the major Indian pharmaceutical firms such as Cipla and Intex.  Generally I can tell if the drug is working.  It&#039;s pretty easy with blood pressure drugs.  I trust drugs from a big Indian pharma more than I trust a Philippine generic and it will cost me half the price.

Is this ideal -- no.  Do I wish I could have American or European big pharma drugs?  Of course, but it&#039;s just not possible.  They would cost ten times as much and may well be manufactured in India or China where the vast majority of raw pharmaceutical ingredients are made.  My genuine Lipitor is made in Turkey.

One of the on-line pharmacies I have dealt with cannot accept credit cards, only EFT payments.  Despite the concerns, they are promptly shipping me drugs from Cipla, Intas and so forth.  To have all these outfits hounded out of existence will not help me or others who depend on them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a retired American living in the Philippines.  Drugs from big pharma are expensive here.  Name brand generics such as Teva and Apotex are unavailable.  Locally manufactured generics are available, but not cheap and anyway the raw ingredients are imported.  From where &#8212; who knows.</p>
<p>Buying from mail order pharmacies is an economic necessity.  I think you may be a bit to0 blanket in your condemnation of these pharmacies.  I am getting drugs from the major Indian pharmaceutical firms such as Cipla and Intex.  Generally I can tell if the drug is working.  It&#8217;s pretty easy with blood pressure drugs.  I trust drugs from a big Indian pharma more than I trust a Philippine generic and it will cost me half the price.</p>
<p>Is this ideal &#8212; no.  Do I wish I could have American or European big pharma drugs?  Of course, but it&#8217;s just not possible.  They would cost ten times as much and may well be manufactured in India or China where the vast majority of raw pharmaceutical ingredients are made.  My genuine Lipitor is made in Turkey.</p>
<p>One of the on-line pharmacies I have dealt with cannot accept credit cards, only EFT payments.  Despite the concerns, they are promptly shipping me drugs from Cipla, Intas and so forth.  To have all these outfits hounded out of existence will not help me or others who depend on them.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-122363</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-122363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;Visa is burning us with napalm.
Wrong translation. Should be &quot;Visa burns with napalm&quot;. 
&quot;Burns with napalm&quot; is an idiom. It usually used when one talks about someone doing something fascinating (joke or crasyness, but sometimes it could be something else). 
Like for example &quot;Monty Python burn with napalm in their latest movie&quot;, or &quot;[username] burns with napalm&quot; in reply to a crasy forum post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Visa is burning us with napalm.<br />
Wrong translation. Should be &#8220;Visa burns with napalm&#8221;.<br />
&#8220;Burns with napalm&#8221; is an idiom. It usually used when one talks about someone doing something fascinating (joke or crasyness, but sometimes it could be something else).<br />
Like for example &#8220;Monty Python burn with napalm in their latest movie&#8221;, or &#8220;[username] burns with napalm&#8221; in reply to a crasy forum post.</p>
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		<title>By: JCitizen</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-122059</link>
		<dc:creator>JCitizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-122059</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe we should be teaching the same personal finance classes we use in freshmen college, to middle school students at grade 7! None of these concepts are unattainable for young people.

Certain economic interests have been blocking this education since the 1920s, but we can&#039;t do without it, and be competitive, and keep our head above hot water(financially).

I truly believe the next big change in thinking about economics will be the working man&#039;s ownership of the place he/she works, and the change of medical care to non-profits. It is the only way to bring back the middle class, and control medical costs, which are completely out of control now.

Instead of the dictatorship of the proletariat, it will be the ownership of the proletariat. To make good decisions, these concepts will have to be introduced early in life, and ingrained at the secondary school level.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe we should be teaching the same personal finance classes we use in freshmen college, to middle school students at grade 7! None of these concepts are unattainable for young people.</p>
<p>Certain economic interests have been blocking this education since the 1920s, but we can&#8217;t do without it, and be competitive, and keep our head above hot water(financially).</p>
<p>I truly believe the next big change in thinking about economics will be the working man&#8217;s ownership of the place he/she works, and the change of medical care to non-profits. It is the only way to bring back the middle class, and control medical costs, which are completely out of control now.</p>
<p>Instead of the dictatorship of the proletariat, it will be the ownership of the proletariat. To make good decisions, these concepts will have to be introduced early in life, and ingrained at the secondary school level.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-122014</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 15:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-122014</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Economical education in the US? Are you joking? I guess you mean how to use plastic and accumulate debt? JFYI German private savings could pay off the entire debt of the EU.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economical education in the US? Are you joking? I guess you mean how to use plastic and accumulate debt? JFYI German private savings could pay off the entire debt of the EU.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-122013</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 15:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-122013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Because its illegal they wouldnt do it? I would say you fail at logic ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because its illegal they wouldnt do it? I would say you fail at logic &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: AlphaCentauri</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-121834</link>
		<dc:creator>AlphaCentauri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 23:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-121834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Markez, how do you propose to gather data about people who suffer harm from substandard drugs?

In many cases, these are people who don&#039;t go to their doctors. The generic drugs being sold online are MORE expensive than the ones sold in local pharmacies -- but they are sold without prescriptions. So if those drugs are ineffective, but the person taking them doesn&#039;t get cholesterol levels or blood pressure checks, he won&#039;t know he&#039;s taking worthless pills.  

And most of drugs for chronic diseases like diabetes and high blood pressure are to prevent long term consequences. You would need to do a long term study to know if there were more people getting strokes or going on dialysis.  How would you do a study of people who -don&#039;t- go to doctors? 

If those people do suffer consequences despite buying drugs for their condition on line, it&#039;s not going to be detected. As far as anyone knows, they weren&#039;t taking drugs. They had no prescriptions, saw no doctors, and bought the drugs illegally.  No one will know they were paying for ineffective drugs instead of just not taking any at all.

And if the drugs they take are toxic, again, who will know? Do you imagine that every person who dies gets an extensive  post mortem exam like Michael Jackson&#039;s?  Mostly, the medical examiner&#039;s office calls the person&#039;s last physician for a history, finds out he had diabetes and  heart disease and never kept appointments or took medications, and signs the death certificate as death due to natural causes. There could be thousands of deaths among people with known chronic diseases, and no one would notice it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Markez, how do you propose to gather data about people who suffer harm from substandard drugs?</p>
<p>In many cases, these are people who don&#8217;t go to their doctors. The generic drugs being sold online are MORE expensive than the ones sold in local pharmacies &#8212; but they are sold without prescriptions. So if those drugs are ineffective, but the person taking them doesn&#8217;t get cholesterol levels or blood pressure checks, he won&#8217;t know he&#8217;s taking worthless pills.  </p>
<p>And most of drugs for chronic diseases like diabetes and high blood pressure are to prevent long term consequences. You would need to do a long term study to know if there were more people getting strokes or going on dialysis.  How would you do a study of people who -don&#8217;t- go to doctors? </p>
<p>If those people do suffer consequences despite buying drugs for their condition on line, it&#8217;s not going to be detected. As far as anyone knows, they weren&#8217;t taking drugs. They had no prescriptions, saw no doctors, and bought the drugs illegally.  No one will know they were paying for ineffective drugs instead of just not taking any at all.</p>
<p>And if the drugs they take are toxic, again, who will know? Do you imagine that every person who dies gets an extensive  post mortem exam like Michael Jackson&#8217;s?  Mostly, the medical examiner&#8217;s office calls the person&#8217;s last physician for a history, finds out he had diabetes and  heart disease and never kept appointments or took medications, and signs the death certificate as death due to natural causes. There could be thousands of deaths among people with known chronic diseases, and no one would notice it.</p>
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		<title>By: JCitizen</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-121688</link>
		<dc:creator>JCitizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 07:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-121688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I cannot refute your data, but I do know that every economic expert in the world agrees that Europe&#039;s problems are a result of Socialist support of health care.

I propose that privately owned associations would be more successful. We already do that with GREAT success in the US in the service market - as in power, internet, and phone service! These are non-profit organizations, but my family has already benefited from the estate of my mother after she passed away, and our phone/telco association paid out the profit of the estate. We own telephone, internet, satellite, and cable TV service; notice I way WE own it! And we show up to the meetings and vote for our proxies, and have a say in day to day operations too! 

Foreigners may be ahead of us in technical education, but they are  FAR behind in economical education. Believe me - I love and respect the peoples of the world, but nobody beats the USA!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I cannot refute your data, but I do know that every economic expert in the world agrees that Europe&#8217;s problems are a result of Socialist support of health care.</p>
<p>I propose that privately owned associations would be more successful. We already do that with GREAT success in the US in the service market &#8211; as in power, internet, and phone service! These are non-profit organizations, but my family has already benefited from the estate of my mother after she passed away, and our phone/telco association paid out the profit of the estate. We own telephone, internet, satellite, and cable TV service; notice I way WE own it! And we show up to the meetings and vote for our proxies, and have a say in day to day operations too! </p>
<p>Foreigners may be ahead of us in technical education, but they are  FAR behind in economical education. Believe me &#8211; I love and respect the peoples of the world, but nobody beats the USA!</p>
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		<title>By: markez</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-121669</link>
		<dc:creator>markez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 04:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-121669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do not eat what medias give you. IF there really was deaths or so by Generics you would hear of more than 1-2 people it would be thousands. Also cooking drugs at home is as illegal as in Asia.
Pharmacies work because most of them sell GOOD drugs and get repetive customers unlike companies that just steal due to braning.
Dont get fooled of YT vids you shown, nobody dies of generic drugs they are as good as normal ones. Imagine 1000s sales a day of generics and dying of people. Within month around 100k would die aroudn the world but.. they dont!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do not eat what medias give you. IF there really was deaths or so by Generics you would hear of more than 1-2 people it would be thousands. Also cooking drugs at home is as illegal as in Asia.<br />
Pharmacies work because most of them sell GOOD drugs and get repetive customers unlike companies that just steal due to braning.<br />
Dont get fooled of YT vids you shown, nobody dies of generic drugs they are as good as normal ones. Imagine 1000s sales a day of generics and dying of people. Within month around 100k would die aroudn the world but.. they dont!</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan Savage</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-121657</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 01:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-121657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The main reason I don&#039;t expect a successful move away from Visa/MC is that alternative payments are unfamiliar to US consumers who make up the bulk of the demand for these products/services.  When we looked at Glavmed transactions earlier in the year, 96% of all revenue was transacted via Visa/MC/Amex.  We&#039;ve seen programs try other things when they lose Visa: COD in the states, eCheck (ACH), Paypal, Western Union, Moneybookers, and event Bitcoin.  But for general niches these end up being poor substitutes for Visa/MC because US consumers just won&#039;t use them and sales go down by an order of magnitude.  

Now, there are exceptions.  High-fear sales (e.g., ransomware) or high-demand sales (like Oxycodone).  In the first case consumers can be sufficiently worried about their personal liability that they&#039;re willing to do something very unfamiliar (e.g., go get a paysafecard at their supermarket).  In the later case, consumers are driven seekers and can be willing to entertain a wider variety of options to get what they want.  Thus, online gambling is still eminently fundable without Visa/MC if you&#039;re sufficiently interested to find out how (but losing Visa/MC eliminated the revenue from all the casual US gamblers).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main reason I don&#8217;t expect a successful move away from Visa/MC is that alternative payments are unfamiliar to US consumers who make up the bulk of the demand for these products/services.  When we looked at Glavmed transactions earlier in the year, 96% of all revenue was transacted via Visa/MC/Amex.  We&#8217;ve seen programs try other things when they lose Visa: COD in the states, eCheck (ACH), Paypal, Western Union, Moneybookers, and event Bitcoin.  But for general niches these end up being poor substitutes for Visa/MC because US consumers just won&#8217;t use them and sales go down by an order of magnitude.  </p>
<p>Now, there are exceptions.  High-fear sales (e.g., ransomware) or high-demand sales (like Oxycodone).  In the first case consumers can be sufficiently worried about their personal liability that they&#8217;re willing to do something very unfamiliar (e.g., go get a paysafecard at their supermarket).  In the later case, consumers are driven seekers and can be willing to entertain a wider variety of options to get what they want.  Thus, online gambling is still eminently fundable without Visa/MC if you&#8217;re sufficiently interested to find out how (but losing Visa/MC eliminated the revenue from all the casual US gamblers).</p>
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		<title>By: Benya Crick</title>
		<link>http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/rogue-pharma-fake-av-vendors-feel-credit-card-crunch/comment-page-1/#comment-121655</link>
		<dc:creator>Benya Crick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 01:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://krebsonsecurity.com/?p=17255#comment-121655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As conventional avenues for merchant services become increasingly unavailable, presumably we&#039;ll begin to see wholesale displacement to virtual currencies. It would be interesting to know why rogue pharma&#039;s &quot;attempt to continue their businesses using alternative payment mechanisms including PayPal and, most recently, Bitcoin ... has not been successful&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As conventional avenues for merchant services become increasingly unavailable, presumably we&#8217;ll begin to see wholesale displacement to virtual currencies. It would be interesting to know why rogue pharma&#8217;s &#8220;attempt to continue their businesses using alternative payment mechanisms including PayPal and, most recently, Bitcoin &#8230; has not been successful&#8221;.</p>
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